It's about time someone stood up to Israel!!!

[Jackyd99]

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/01/14/bolivia.israel/index.html

I think the whole world needs to do what Bolivia and Venezuela have done....saying that Israel is "responding to years of bombing from Hamas" is a complete farce....

How about giving the Palestinians their homeland back???  Which was "given" to Israel back in, what, the 60's?

Giving the Palestinians their homeland back would immediately solve most of the mid-east problems!

Off my soapbox now!

[Molly Mockford]

I always find it particularly ominous when a country refuses to allow independent journalists in, to witness what is going on.  For instance, under Mugabe, BBC reporters have been banned from Zimbabwe for years.  Israel refuses to allow reporters, of any nationality, into Gaza;  the news we have is only what can be got out by the Palestinians in there, and passed to the journalists in Israel itself.

I cannot think of any reason for banning reporters other than that something is going on which the country concerned knows full well it ought to be ashamed of.  In this case, it is the cold-blooded targeting of civilians - destroying schools, domestic housing, killing and wounding hundreds and hundreds of civilians (including many children) on the excuse that there just might be a member of Hamas amongst them.  It's hard to find anything to which to compare this sort of thing - although the My Lai massacre comes to mind.

For a while, people were edgy about criticising Israel, because it was seen as being anti-Semitic to do so.  But criticising the actions of Israel is no more criticising ordinary Israelis than criticising the foreign policy of the Bush regime is criticising ordinary Americans.  There are many Israelis, students in particular, protesting against their own government's actions - but we don't get to hear much about these protests.  Nevertheless, it is very important to remember that criticising Israel is not being anti-semitic!

[Jackyd99]

Whew! Thanks for that Molly - I was a bit nervous about posting that link for the exact reason you mention.... 

[Molly Mockford]

I have put on the web some photographs of what is happening to children in Gaza.  They are not pleasant.  People who do not want to know what is going on should not look at them.

http://www.mollymockford.me.uk/general/gaza.html

[Jan]

Israel's aim to starve the Palestinians until they can no longer fight is despicable, and sharing in the blame are their fellow Arabs who sold the land to the Israelis in the first place, way back when, with no apparent regard for what would happen to the people living there (many of whom did not even know that such a thing as a deed to land existed).  The other Arab states do little but lip service to assist the Palestinians, who certainly have very little to lose--little or no freedom to move about and so to work and so to feed their families, farms stolen, and a corrupt and lack-lustre government.  Who could blame them for electing Hamas? 

At the same time, Hamas has mistreated its own people, living among them and making war from areas where civilians could easily be targeted in retaliation.  Such behavior is cowardly and shows no respect for their own people.  Women and children are apparently expendable.  Hamas needs to grow up, Israel needs to remember its own past and the horror of being singled out and targeted as less than human, being nearly exterminated, and having their property taken.  It all sounds so familiar, but it is the same behavior we have been encouraged to never forget and never forgive (and rightly so). 

I believe the U.S. should cease aid to Israel.  Last year it was something like $2.4 billion.  Of course, not all Israelis are at fault, but with Netanyahu in line to take power once again, expect no change for the better.  "I will not keep Olmert's commitments to withdraw and I won't evacuate settlements."  His pro-settlement position means he is nothing short of pro-conflict, which translates as pro-extermination of the Palestinians.  I would be interested to know what he means by "economic peace," which I anticipate will be a continuation of the starvation strategy.

[Jackyd99]

The other Arab states do little but lip service to assist the Palestinians, who certainly have very little to lose--little or no freedom to move about and so to work and so to feed their families, farms stolen, and a corrupt and lack-lustre government.  Who could blame them for electing Hamas? 

A lot of this is due to fear - of the USA. Look what happened to Saddam Hussein when he brought up that the arab world should start using their own currency in oil deals and stop dealing in US dollars....ok, Saddam was a bad man, a really bad man...but there was a time that he was best mates with the USA - as soon as he turned on them (with the currency conversations) - he was public enemy number 1!!

The USA is probably more corrupt and self serving than any other country on the planet...if you dig into many a crisis around the world - the USA involvement is directly related to how the USA can/cannot benefit from it....sick and twisted and not at all fair!

(off my soapbox)

[Jan]

Indeed, but we are at least working toward change, finally, thank God, and it's been a long haul. 

The Palestinians might have less to fear from the U.S. if we would stop sending so much money to Israel, and I don't think they are so much in need at this point in time.  Perhaps they once were, but no longer. 

[Jackyd99]

...if we would stop sending so much money to Israel, and I don't think they are so much in need at this point in time.  Perhaps they once were, but no longer. 

Unfortunately Jan, that's not going to happen - the USA is tied to Israel for the long haul - and for too many reasons to go into here...(also my explanation may offend some and I might be blamed for being racist or anti-semitic - which I am not).

[Jan]

I am neither racist nor anti-Semitic.  My very dear friend John, who is Jewish, feels much the same way that I do about the treatment of the Palestinians, making no excuses for their acts of terrorism, and I do not excuse that, either.  My point is simply that their backs have been against the wall for a great long time, so what else does Israel expect? 

I do not think the U.S. will cut off aid to Israel.  However, if we continue to be faced with the economic crisis for the long term, I do not see how we can not at least consider it.  Israel is in good shape without our money.  The Palestinians, on the other hand, have a much greater need.  I would be in favor of giving the money to them and not Israel. 

I am sorry that the Palestinians elected Hamas, because they did themselves no favors (plus who could love the Hamas killers--certainly not I).  But the Palestinians have complained about the corruption in the Fatah party for a good long time--since Arafat--the kind of corruption that brings wealth to the people in power while the poor continue to barely survive or not survive at all.  Some liberationists. 

As scummy as the U.S. government has been, and I am no fan, I do not see any comparison between the U.S. government and Fatah, which was essentially comprised of thugs and criminals like Arafat--a killer.

That said, as to your assertions about the U.S. government, I have much hope for the United States, even though we are in a bleak time.  I think our president is genuinely interested in listening to opposing views.  If you saw his appearance in Elkhart, Indiana, yesterday, you saw that he was essentially accused of business as usual, the crowd booed the question, and he stopped them and said, "That's a fair question."  He acknowledge that he screwed up.  He did screw up.  In fact, I was not in favor of Geithner, and I do not believe that his tax woes were innocent.  Even I knew that the IMF did not withhold taxes, and I don't know anything about the IMF, so how could he not have known?  I was saddened by the news about Tom Daschle, but he was right to stand down.  He never should have accepted the nomination. 

But we press on.  We will see what happens.  I am optimistic that we are at least on the right track.  Finally. 

[Jackyd99]

As scummy as the U.S. government has been, and I am no fan, I do not see any comparison between the U.S. government and Fatah, which was essentially comprised of thugs and criminals like Arafat--a killer.

Unfortunately I do - Gitmo comes to mind - which to me makes the USA government no better than Arafat. Bush sanctioned torture - so how is he different to Arafat? - oh, because he did it on the sly and not outright....

The USA will never stop supporting Israel, because the USA is governed by big business - and big business is predominately controlled by the Jews. There I said it...any digging on Google will reveal that.

I'm not having a go at you Jan, I agree with most of what you are saying - and I too have hope - but I don't believe that O'Bama is going to be able to sort this conflict - as it goes deeper than just Hamas and Israel throwing rockets at each other.