Collective noun agreement

[Howard]

Very interesting entry on Lynneguist's blog about the differences in usage between AmE and BrE as to which collective nouns should take a verb in the singular form, and which the plural.

For example, would you say, "The Government is ..." or "The Government are ..."?  The former seems to be the preferred form in AmE; the latter is often used in BrE.

Anyway, have a look at http://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.com/ , and see what you think about this prickly question!

[Modified later to correct typo    ]

[Lotus Freak]

interesting blog, I never even realised that the Brits used the plural form...I need to start paying more attention.

[Windsong]

I'm going to have to listen to Steve closer.  I've never actually noticed.  I'll have to listen closer to myself too!

[steveg]

I'm going to have to listen to Steve closer.

Oh this is too good!  And I have it in writing too!  hahahaha <evil cackle> 

Steve

[Howard]

It seems that BrE is not so rigorous as AmE in its usage with regard to whether collective nouns take a singular or plural verb form (or pronouns appertaining to them).

This is from the Concise OED's (11^th ed., 2004) Appendix 11, Guide to Good English:

Singular and plural nouns

Singular nouns treated as plural
Some nouns are singular in from but are used with a verb that can be either singular or plural, or in some case only plural.  The commonest of  these are the collective nouns which stand for a group or collection of people or things, such as audience, committee, crew, family, generation, government, group, jury, team, and many others.

The general rule with words like these is to treat them as a singular when the emphasis is on the group as a whole and as a plural when the emphasis is on the individuals that form the group.

   A group of four young men in overalls was standing close to him. (singular)

   The jury retired at the end of the day to consider their verdict.  (plural)

Some collective nouns are fully plural:

   By and large the police do a good job.


Plural nouns treated as singular
Other nouns are plural  in form but are treated as singular, either always or in some meanings.  Chief among these are the names of branches of knowledge or science such as acoustics, and mathematics, activities such as billiards and gymnastics, and diseases such as measles.

   Acoustics is taught as part of the extended course.

   The figures show that measles is on the increase.

Other plural nouns such as data, media, and agenda, are now commonly treated as singular.  Depending on their meaning, they are either countable nouns, which can be used with a or an and have plural forms, e.g., agendas, or mass nouns, which do not have a plural form but are used in the singular with words such as this and much:

   The media has lost interest in the subject.

   This data is in a form that can be used by other institutions.

Some plural words adopted unchanged from other languages, such as spaghetti and graffiti, develop singular meanings:

   The furniture had been damaged and graffiti was daubed on the walls.


Subjects and objects
When the subject of the verb be is singular but the part that follows is plural, the verb should generally agree with its subject, regardless of what follows:

   The only traffic is ox carts and bicycles.

When the subject is a singular collective noun, the verb may be in the plural, following the usual pattern with such nouns:

   Its prey are other small animals.

[Windsong]

"A group of four young men in overalls was standing close to him. (singular)"

Now if I had said this, I would have said "A group of four young men in overalls were standing close to him."  Saying it with "was" doesn't feel quite right when I say it.  Is either correct?

[steveg]

"A group of four young men in overalls was standing close to him. (singular)"

Now if I had said this, I would have said "A group of four young men in overalls were standing close to him."  Saying it with "was" doesn't feel quite right when I say it.  Is either correct?

I have to agree with Paula on this one - I to would say 'were' - actually, that's not true, with my Yorkshire accent I would say "Wuh" - but if I were to try to use 'was' then it would come out as "wah" - terrible grammar really, but in truth doesn't really sound as bad as it appears in type

Steve

[Molly Mockford]

I would distinguish between "A group of four young men was..." and "Four young men were..." without even thinking about it.

[Lotus Freak]

"A group of four young men in overalls was standing close to him. (singular)"

Now if I had said this, I would have said "A group of four young men in overalls were standing close to him."  Saying it with "was" doesn't feel quite right when I say it.  Is either correct?

I would use 'were' as well.

the problem with me is that I try to incorporate BrE into my ArE and sometimes they clash, especially when I'm trying to write letters to customers and solicitors. I want to sound professional so I have a tendancy to ask one of my colleagues to proof read my work so that it sounds right to them.

[thewiggy1]

"A group of four young men in overalls was standing close to him. (singular)"

Now if I had said this, I would have said "A group of four young men in overalls were standing close to him."  Saying it with "was" doesn't feel quite right when I say it.  Is either correct?

I have to agree with Paula on this one - I to would say 'were' - actually, that's not true, with my Yorkshire accent I would say "Wuh" - but if I were to try to use 'was' then it would come out as "wah" - terrible grammar really, but in truth doesn't really sound as bad as it appears in type

Steve

I would use the singular, because the sentence is referring to the group as a whole.  "The group was standing there" - doing something together.  "The group were fighting amongst themselves" - doing something individually in relation to each other.

[TheDonF]

Hi folks

I'll come out of lurking for this as it's a subject close to my heart! The UK does indeed tend to get things mixed up as people have said. It's especially true with organisations, eg "Microsoft are releasing IE7" instead of the correct "Microsoft is...". I didn't really pick up on it until a few years ago. Still, if we're talking collective noun abuse, then let's mention the Standard American Collective Noun: "bunch". "I did a bunch of work today", "I have a bunch of things to pick up", "look at that bunch of people over there". It drives my American SO slightly mad when I mention it! It's usually at that point that the discussion turns to the correct pronunciation of "smart arse/ass"!

So now that I've delurked, I suppose I should go over and introduce myself...